Kate33

I agree with you, Mona, about how difficult the market is, but I find that the case in most big cities, not just Seattle. LA, DC, NY are also very popular and competitive. Just too many damn lawyers in the US...:-). However, I am a true believer in "Where there is a will, there is a way" and you may have to move to WA (or any place you want to practice) first or at least borrow a friend's local address for your resume, but with persistence, it IS possible. You may have to start temping for a while. Other options are working for legal aid--they are always begging for people. (The pay sucks, but interesting experience and it gets your foot in the door). Another option is the good, old fashioned solo practice. It takes awhile to get started, but almost anyone can start a bankruptcy practice and, sadly, the business is booming nowadays.

monali8

wow, that is actually pretty inspiring. I feel like apologizing for my demoralizing comment.

That is definitely true. After all, even I found a job. It is difficult in a sense that you may have to start with a really low pay, but yes, it is possible. And if this is what you want to do, you will enjoy it regardless of your pay.

Kate33

Thanks, Mona. I plan to take the WA State bar in Feb. 09. I was going to take the NM bar this July, but I work FT and I decided to stop flogging myself over my poor MBE practice progress to date and just opt for WA because it is entirely essays (no evil MBE, MPT).

Kate

quasifool

Hi. David from Florida here again. I am on this thread because I am taking the QLTT, but I have been a practicing lawyer for about 25 years. I will repeat myself and say that I am very surprised by assumptions regarding the Bar Exams and your employability. Sorry, bu I think you are wrong on both.
Just remember, many of the Bar Exams of the 50 States are very easy and most of them are easier than NY. Also, employers really like people from Ireland for the connection they can make with Irish customers and because American customers find Irish accents very attractive. I really think you can find a job over here. Just pick a State with an easier Bar exam, like Florida. I myself would consider an Irish candidate very carefully, again, because of the big Irish project going in here in Sarasota and also because American just love Irish accents and it will give you a headstart with any prospecting for clients.
I say do a little research and then go for it!

Kate33

In response to David from FL:

With all due respect, I think the employment outlook was much rosier decades ago, when you began your practice. I know of many barred attorneys who have been either unemployed or underemployed for years, working as glorified, underpaid research assistants to pay the bills. Some were honors grads of top tier schools, so a lack of initiative on their part was not a factor. The overabundance of attorneys in this country is largely due to a failure of the profession to properly regulate itself and limit the proliferation of new law schools. They have sprouted up over the last decades like weeds. Why? Because they are quick profit mills. Unfortunately, revenue was the main focus with little attention given to the long-term impact: oversaturation of the market for attorneys and rise in the numbers of underemployed or unemployed JDs. I don't think anyone in this country would argue--at least with a straight face--that there are not enough lawyers in America.

Also, the bar pass rates were significantly higher then. If you look at the data pertaining to pass rates over the decades, there is clearly a trend downward in many states. In a "too little, too late," knee-jerk response to the skyrocketing numbers of new law schools, many state bars are raising pass scores to limit competition against established firms. Of course, no one will ever admit to that on-the-record. My state, NV, is a classic case in point. I have heard so many rumors here from well-respected, well-established attorneys that NV deliberately limits its admissions to no more that 60% of applicants every year because attorneys here decided they did not want any more competition and pressured the bar examiners to lower the pass rates. A few rumors I discount; years of rumors and stories from prominent attorneys, uh uh.

Kate33

Just curious about your statement that many of the 50 states' bar exams are "easy". Which ones???? I know people who, together, have taken bars in half the states. None ever characterized the bar as "easy," just more or less painful versions of hell. Perhaps you are referring to FL, your home state. But, according to the National Council of Law Examiners' stats, FL's pass rate has been in the 60 percent range for the last several years, not unlike NY. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, I guess it depends on your definition of "easy"....:-)

monali8

To Kate 33,

If you are working FT, then you should totally get a set of outlines. You can google it up
"washington bar exam outlines" and find some really helpful outlines out there

Some people think you should always make your own outlines instead of buying them, and you can definitely read about those opinions on studyfor.com I don't disagree with them completely, but I just think if time is of essence, why not use some help?!?! Get those digital outlines, and you can customize it and make it your own, kill 2 birds with 1 stone:)

Also, practice many many many essays if you are taking the Washington state. It's so tiring. My hand was literally swollen after the exam b/c I had to write so much. know how that feels so that you have the strength to go through it.

Good luck!!!

ipnoland

Hi Kate,

I am taking the NY Bar in Feb (2nd time) and was hoping you could give me a few pointers? I got 642 in my previous sitting but didn't practice and MBE or outline and essays/MPTs prior to it. Do you think this would be useful this time around? Also, did you use Barbri? They recommend using the IRAC method to answer the essays which I didn't. Others recommend that you don't use this method as the examiners just think you are learning off by heart... all coments/suggestions very welcome.

Thank you,
Dave

Kate33

I'm sorry, Dave, but I am not very familiar with the NY bar. All I know is that it is comprised of the MBE, MPT, and essays and has a pass rate in the 60-70 percent range. If you are hell-bent on living and practicing in NY, just keep trying until you pass the @%&$er. If not, I would shop around, compare other state bar exam pass rates and take an exam in a state with a higher pass rate (NM, UT, for example). Of course, another option is finding a federal government job--fed jobs just require that attorneys be barred in any state, so you could work in a fed. job in NY and just sit for NJ (MBE topics plus NJ civ. pro; no zillion additional substantive topics to learn, but I do hear the NJ CLE requirements are ridiculous).

Based on your comments, it appears that you did not spend enough time studying or doing practice questions/exams. That is a BIG mistake! Contrary to other posts on this site claiming the bar is not very difficult, it is, especially if you do not prepare for it. Even Harvard Law-educated Kathleen Sullivan, the former dean of Stanford Law School, washed out. She claims she didn't really study, but I think that was just a face-saving BS line, her response to the huge media blitz that followed news of her failure, and I find it hard to believe that someone in the business of preparing law students for the bar and practice didn't bother studying. Most folks study their asses off. Bottom line, study your ass off. Someone advised me to do over 2,000 practice MBE questions and 4-5 practice essays per topic area, and 4-5 MPT practice questions. That kind of effort does not seem unreasonable, given your investment of time (3 years) and a zillion dollars pursuing a career you cannot embark upon until you pass the stupid exam and get your little bar # and diploma from the Supreme Court of your chosen practice state. If you can afford it and your schedule allows, plunk down a couple thousand $$$ and enroll in a formal prep class.

My experience:
I planned to sit for NM this July, just bought books off the Internet and borrowed someone's laptop with old MicroMash practice MBE questions. I had been away from law school many years--I decided to work in politics instead of practice law--so I had tons of catching up to do. (It is astonishing how much of this crap you forget after the trauma of three years in a meat grinder--law school. Rule Against Perpetuities?? What the @$&* is that??) After a few months of reviewing outlines downloaded from the Internet and practicing the MBE (all while working FT), I noticed my MBE practice scores were not improving and concluded I would not be prepared come July (my employer agreed to give me only three weeks off and I had not even begun practicing essays, MPT) and would thus be wasting thousands of dollars traveling out of state and sitting for a bar I would likely not pass. End result: I decided to stop torturing myself, worrying about three different formats, and sit for the WA state bar instead because of its all essay format. Just 2.5 days of essay hell (although I feel much more in control with essays), as opposed to 200 evil MBE Qs, plus 2 evil MPTs, AND essay hell. In WA state, days 1 and 2 are devoted to substantive law. On day 3, half a day is devoted to ethics essays only. If you flunk ethics but pass the substantive portion, you only need to retake the section you didn't pass, not sit for the entire stinker all over again. How deliciously humane!! Also, WA state's application is much shorter, simpler than others and does not ask a zillion intrusive questions about what you did or didn't do in kindergarten...:-).

Sorry for the long-winded reply, and I wish you well!

Kate

Kate33

Thanks for your comments, Mona! I will be sitting for it in Feb. 09 and plan to use a laptop, so I will hopefully minimize the terrible hand cramps you experienced. (Is there a reason you opted for handwritten instead of using a computer?) I am also working out at the gym a la "Rocky" to pump up my hand strength, full body stamina, and confidence...:-)

I am planning on using the baroutlines, but am also considering supplementing them with a formal review class. Everyone knows about BARBRI, but I understand there are two other regional bar review companies in WA. Any thoughts on them, pro or con? I live in NV, so I will have to do the home-study routine. I also paid the WA bar for copies of old essays.

Any suggestions re: organization strategy or time mgmt.? (Did you feel you had ample time to complete all Qs?) Any special "tricks" or "curve balls" to be aware of on the essays?? How much time did you allot for each question? And how are they graded?

Last but not least, do you have any study materials for purchase?

Thanks!!

Kate